Buddhist Hour

Script No. 395

Broadcast live on Hillside 88.0 FM

on Sunday 21 August 2005CE  2549 Buddhist Era

This script is entitled:

The Questions of King Millinda part II

Thank you for tuning into the Buddhist Hour.  We begin the program with a summary of last week’s broadcast “The Questions of King Milinda”.  This story relays the famous conversation between King Milinda of Greece and the Venerable Monk Nagasena.

Throughout the text, King Millinda is unsure about the correct way to view the Dharma and thus asks a series of difficult questions to the Venerable Monk Nagasena.

Nagasena, through his great wisdom, illustrates the Dharma through common, every day examples, which eventually inspires the King’s taking refuge in the Triple Gem.  That is, refuge in the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Sangha.

King Milinda is described in the text as “ a man who was learned, experienced, intelligent and competent, and who at the proper times carefully observed all the appropriate Brahminic rites, with regard to things past, present and future.  As a disputant he was hard to assail, hard to overcome, and he was recognized as a prominent sectarian teacher .”

With his status as a prominent sectarian teacher, he had the habit of assailing the nearby Sangha with very difficult questions, then counter questioning those he interrogated which at most times left them at a loss.

Then, one day, a company of Arhants sent a message to the Venerable Nagasena saying, “ That King Milinda constantly harasses the order of monks with questions and counter-questions, with arguments and counter-arguments.  Please go, Nagasena, and subdue him !"

Nagasena agreed to talk to the king and went forth to where he was staying with a company of 80,000 monks.  Upon exchanging pleasantries, Nagasena immediately preceeded to claim that he, himself, called Nagasena, did not really exist, which began a long conversation between the Venerable and the King about the principles of selflessness and the law of Karma.

So now we will now begin with part two of “The Questions of King Milinda.”

The King asked: "Is cessation Nirvana?"

"Yes, your majesty!"

"How is that, Nagasena?"

"All the foolish common people take delight in the senses and their objects, are impressed by them, are attached to them.

In that way, they are carried away by the flood and are not set free from birth, old age and death, from grief, lamentation, pain, sadness, and despair - they are, I say, not set free from suffering.

But the well-informed holy disciples do not take delight in the senses and their objects, are not impressed by them, are not attached to them, and in consequence their craving ceases; the cessation of craving leads successively to the cessation of grasping, of becoming, of birth, of old age and death, of grief, lamentation, pain, sadness, and despair - that is to say, to the cessation of all this mass of ill.  It is thus that cessation is Nirvana."

"Very good, Nagasena!"

The King asked:  "Do all win Nirvana?"

"No, they do not.

Only those win Nirvana who, progressing correctly, know by their super knowledge those dharmas which should be known by super knowledge, comprehend those dharmas which should be comprehended, forsake those dharmas which should be forsaken, develop those dharmas which should be developed, and realize those dharmas which should be realized."

"Very good, Nagasena!"

The King asked: "Do those who have not won Nirvana know how happy a state it is?"

"Yes, they do."

"But how can one know this about Nirvana without having attained it?"

"Now, what do you think, your majesty?

Do those who have not had their hands and feet cut off know how hard it is to have them cut off?"

"Yes, they do."

"And how do they know it?"

"From hearing the sound of the lamentations of those whose hands and feet have been cut off."

"So it is by hearing the words of those who have seen Nirvana that one knows it to be comforted."

"Well said, Nagasena!"

King Milinda said:  "I will grant you, Nagasena, that Nirvana is absolute ease, and that nevertheless one cannot point to its form or shape, its duration or size, either by simile or explanation, by reason or by argument.

But is there perhaps some quality of Nirvana which it shares with other things, and which lends itself to a metaphorical explanation?"

"Its form, O King, cannot be elucidated by similes, but its qualities can."

"How good to hear that, Nagasena!

Speak then, quickly, so that I may have an explanation of even one of the aspects of Nirvana!

Appease the fever of my heart!

Allay it with the cool sweet breezes of your words!"

"Nirvana shares one quality with the lotus, two with water, three with medicine, ten with space, three with the wishing jewel, and five with a mountain peak.

As the lotus is unstained by water, so is Nirvana unstained by all the defilements.

As cool water allays feverish heat, so also Nirvana is cool and allays the fever of all the passions.

Moreover, as water removes the thirst of men and beasts who are exhausted, parched, and thirsty, and overpowered by heat, so also Nirvana removes the craving for sensuous enjoyments, the craving for further becoming, the craving for the cessation of becoming.

As medicine protects from the torments of poisons, so Nirvana protects from the torments of the poisonous passions.

Moreover, as medicine puts an end to sickness, so Nirvana puts an end to all sufferings.

Finally, Nirvana and medicine both give security.

And these are the ten qualities which Nirvana shares with space;

Neither is born, grows old, dies, passes away, or is reborn; both are unconquerable, cannot be stolen, are unsupported, are roads respectively for birds and Arhats to journey on, are unobstructed and infinite.

Like the wishing jewel, Nirvana grants all one can desire, brings joy, and sheds light.  As a mountain peak is lofty and exalted, so is Nirvana.

As a mountain peak is unshakeable, so is Nirvana.

As a mountain is inaccessible, so is Nirvana inaccessible to all the passions.

As no seeds can grow on a mountain peak, so the seeds of all the passions cannot grow in Nirvana.

And finally, as a mountain peak is free from all desire to please or displease, so is Nirvana!"

"Well said, Nagasena! So it is, and as much I accept it."

King Milinda said:  "In the world one can see things produced of karma, things produced from a cause, things produced by nature.

Tell me, what in the world is not born of karma, or a cause, or of nature?"

"There are two such things, space and Nirvana."

"Do not, Nagasena, corrupt the Jina (Buddha)'s words, do not answer the question ignorantly!"

"What did I say, Your Majesty, that you speak thus to me?"

"What you said about space not being born of karma, or from a cause, or from nature, that was correct.

But with many hundreds of arguments has the Lord Buddha proclaimed to His disciples the way to the realization of Nirvana, and then you say that Nirvana is not born of a cause!"

"It is true that the Lord has with many hundreds of arguments proclaimed to His disciples the way to the realization of Nirvana, but that does not mean that He has spoken of a cause for the production of Nirvana."

"Here, Nagasena, we do indeed enter from darkness into greater darkness, from a jungle into a deeper jungle, from a thicket into a denser thicket, in as much as we are given a cause for the realization of Nirvana, but no cause for the production of that same dharma (Nirvana).

If there is a cause for the realization of Nirvana, we would also expect one for its production.

If there is a son's father, one would for that reason also expect the father to have had a father; if there is a pupil's teacher, one would for that reason also expect the teacher to have had a teacher; if there is a seed for a sprout, one would for that reason also expect the seed to have had a seed.

Just so, if there is cause for the realization of Nirvana, one would for that reason also expect a cause for its production.

If a tree or creeper has a top, then for that reason it must also have a middle and a root. Just so, if there is a cause for the realization of Nirvana, one would for that reason also expect a cause for its production."

"Nirvana, O King, is not something that should be produced.  That is why no cause for its production has been proclaimed."

"Please, Nagasena, give me a reason, convince me by an argument, so that I can understand this point!"

"Well then, O King, attend carefully, listen closely and I will tell you the reason for this.

Could a man with his natural strength go up from here to the Himalaya mountains?"

"Yes, he could."

"But could that man with his natural strength bring the Himalaya mountains here?"

"No, he could not."

"Just so, it is possible to point out the way to the realization of Nirvana, but impossible to show a cause for its production.

Could a man, who with his natural strength who has crossed in a boat over the great ocean, get to the farther shore?"

"Yes, he could."

"But could that man with his natural strength bring the farther shore of the great ocean shore here?"

"No, he could not."

"Just so, one can point out the way to the realization of Nirvana, but one cannot show a cause for its production.

And what is the reason for that?  Because that dharma (Nirvana) is unconditioned."

"Then, Nagasena, is Nirvana unconditioned?"

"So it is, O King, unconditioned is Nirvana, not made by anything.

Of Nirvana one cannot say that it is produced, or unproduced, or that it should be produced; that it is past, or present, or future; or that one can become aware of it by the eye, or the ear, or the nose, or the tongue, or the body."

"In that case, Nagasena, you indicate Nirvana as a dharma which is not, and Nirvana does not exist."

"Nirvana is something which is recognizable by the mind.

A holy disciple, who has followed the right road, sees Nirvana with a mind which is pure, sublime, straight, unimpeded and disinterested."

"But what then is that Nirvana like?

Give me a simile, and convince me by arguments.

For a dharma which exists can surely be illustrated by a simile!"

"Is there, Great King, something called wind?"

"Yes, there is such a thing."

"Please, will Your Majesty show me the wind, its colour and shape, and whether it is thin or thick, long or short?"

"One cannot point to the wind like that for the wind does not lend itself to being grasped with the hands, or to being untouched.  But nevertheless there is such a thing called 'wind'."

"If one cannot point to the wind, one might concluded that there is no wind at all."

"But I know, Nagasena, that there is wind, I am quite convinced of it, in spite of the fact that I cannot point it out."

"Just so, Your Majesty, there is Nirvana, but one cannot point to Nirvana, either by its colour or its shape."

"Very good, Nagasena.  Clear is the simile, convincing is the argument.  So it is, and so I accept it:  There is a Nirvana."

 The King asked: "Does someone who is no more reborn feel any unpleasant feelings?"

The elder replied:  "Some he feels, and others not."

"Which one does he feel, and which one not?"

"He feels physical, but not any mental pain."

"How is that?"

"The causes and conditions which produce feelings of physical pain have not ceased to operate, whereas those which produce feelings of mental pain have.

And so it has been said by the Lord Buddha:  Only one kind of feelings he feels, physical, and not mental."

"And when he feels a physical pain, why does he not escape into Final Nirvana, by dying quickly?"

"An Arhat has no more likes or dislikes.

Arhats do not shake down the unripe fruit, the wise wait for it to mature.

And so it has been said by the elder Sariputra, the Dharma's General:

"It is not death, it is not life I cherish.

I bide my time, as a servant waiting for his wage.

It is not death, it is not life I cherish.

I bide my time, in mindfulness and wisdom steeped."

"Well put, Nagasena!"

The King asked:  "Is the body dear to you recluses?"

"No, it is not."

"But then, why do you look after it, and cherish it so?"

"Has Your Majesty somewhere and at some time in the course of a battle been wounded by an arrow?"

"Yes, that has happened."

"In such cases, is not the wound anointed with salve, smeared with oil, and bandaged with fine linen?"

"Yes, so it is."

"Then, is this treatment a sign that the wound is dear to Your Majesty?"

"No, it is not dear to me, but all this is done to it so that the flesh may grow again."

"Just so the body is not dear to the recluses.

Without being attached to the body they take care of it for the purpose of making a holy life possible.

The Lord Buddha has compared the body to a wound, and so the recluses take care for the body as for a wound, without being attached to it. For the Lord Buddha said:

"A damp skin hides it,

But it is a wound,

Large with nine openings.

All around it oozes impure

And evil smelling matter."

"Well answered, Nagasena!"

The king asked:  "What is the difference between someone with greed and someone without greed?"

"The one is attached, the other unattached."

"What does that mean?"

"The one covets, the other does not."

"As I see it, the greedy person and the one who is free from greed both wish for agreeable food, and neither of them wishes for bad food."

"But the one who is not free from greed eats his food while experiencing both its taste and some greed for tastes; the one who is free from greed eats his food while experiencing its taste, but without having any greed for it."

"Very good, Nagasena!"

The king asked:  "For what reason does the common worlding suffer both physical and mental pain?"

"Because his thought is so undeveloped.

He is like a hungry and excited ox, who has been tied up with a weak, fragile and short piece of straw or creeper, and who, when agitated, rushes off, taking his tender with him.

So, someone whose thought is undeveloped, gets agitated in his mind when a pain arises in him, and his agitated mind bends and contorts his body, and makes it writhe.

Undeveloped in his mind, he trembles, shrieks, and cries with terror.

This is the reason why the common worlding suffers both physical and mental pain."

"And what is the reason why Arhats feel only one kind of feelings, physical and not mental?"

"The thought of the Arhats is developed, well developed, it is tamed, well tamed, it is obedient and disciplined.

When invaded by a painful feeling, the Arhat firmly grasps at the idea of its impermanence, and ties his thought to the post of contemplation.

And his thought, tied to the post of contemplation, does not tremble or shake, remains steadfast and undisturbed.

But the disturbing influence of the pain, nevertheless, makes his body bend, contorts it, makes it writhe."

"That Nagasena, is indeed a most wonderful thing in this world, that someone's mind should remain unshaken when his body is shaken.

Tell me the reason for that!"

"Suppose, Your Majesty, that there is a gigantic tree, with trunk, branches, and leaves.

If it were hit by the force of the wind, its branches would shake, but would the trunk also shake?"

"No, Venerable Sir!"

"Just so the thought of the Arhat does not tremble or shake, like the trunk of the gigantic tree."

"Wonderful, Nagasena, most admireable, Nagasena!"

The King, as a result of his discussions with the Venerable Nagasena, was overjoyed and humbled.

He saw the value in the Buddha's religion, gained confidence in the Triple Gem, lost his spikiness and obstinance, gained faith in the qualities of the elder, in his observation of the monastic rules, his spiritual progress and his general demeanour; became trusting and resigned, free from conceit and arrogance.

Like a cobra whose fangs have been drawn, he said: "Well said, well said, Nagasena!

You have answered my questions, which would have given scope to a Buddha, you have answered them well!

Apart from the elder Sariputra, the supreme General of the Dharma, there is no one in this religion of Buddha who can deal with questions as well as you do.

Forgive my transgressions, Nagasena!

May the Venerable Nagasena accept me as a lay-follower, as one who takes his refuge the Triple Gem from today onwards, as long as I shall live!"

May you develop faith and refuge in the Triple Gem.

May I be well and happy.

May you be well and happy.

May all beings be well and happy.

This script was prepared and edited by Alec Sloman, Frank Carter, and Anita Hughes.

References

http://web.singnet.sg/`rip31831/nagasesna.htm

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