Buddhist Hour

Script No. 394

Broadcast live on Hillside 88.0 FM

on Sunday 14 August 2005CE  2549 Buddhist Era

This script is entitled:

The Questions of King Millinda part I

This week we are going to take a reprieve from our “Atisha’s A Lamp on the Path” series and present to you, in two parts, a very special Buddhist text called “The Questions of King Millinda.”

In the text there is a Greek king named Millinda who, unsure over the correct way to view the Dharma, asks a series of difficult questions to the Venerable Monk Nagasena.

Nagasena, through his great wisdom, illustrated the Dharma through common, every day examples, which eventually led to the King’s taking refuge in the Triple Gem.

We will begin with the reading of “The Questions of King Millinda.”

In the land of the Bactrian Greeks, there was a city called Sagala, a great centre of trade. Rivers and hills beautified it, delightful landscapes surrounded it, and it possessed many parks, gardens, woods, lakes and lotus-ponds.  Its king was Milinda, a man who was learned, experienced, intelligent and competent, and who at the proper times carefully observed all the appropriate Brahminic rites, with regard to things past, present and future.  As a disputant he was hard to assail, hard to overcome, and he was recognized as a prominent sectarian teacher.

One day, a numerous company of Arhats, who lived in a well-protected spot in the Himalayas, sent a messenger to the Venerable Nagasena, then at the Asoka Park in Patna, asking him to come, as they wished to see him.  Nagasena immediately complied by vanishing from where he was and miraculously appearing before them.

And the Arhats said to him:  "That king Milinda, Nagasena, constantly harasses the order of monks with questions and counter-questions, with arguments and counter-arguments.  Please go, Nagasena, and subdue him!"

 But Nagasena replied:  "Nevermind just this one king Milinda!  If all the kings of India would come to see me with their questions, I could well dispose of them, and they would give no more trouble after that!  You may go to Sagala without any fear whatever!"

And the elders went to Sagala, lighting up the city with their yellow robes which shone like lamps, and bringing with them the fresh breeze of the holy mountains.

The Venerable Nagasena stayed at the Sankheyya hermitage together with 80,000 monks.  King Milinda, accompanied by a retinue of 500 Greeks, went up to where he was, gave him a friendly and courteous greeting and sat on one side.  Nagasena returned his greetings and his courtesy pleased the king's heart.

And King Milinda asked him:  "How is Your Reverence known, and what is your name, sir?"

"As Nagasena I am known, O Great King, and as Nagasena do my fellow religious habitually address me.  But although parents give names such as Nagasena, or Surasena, or Virasena, or Sihasena, nevertheless, this word 'Nagasena' is just a denomination, a designation, a conceptual term, a current appellation, a mere name.  For no real person can here be apprehended."

But King Milinda explained:  "Now listen, you 500 Greeks and 80,000 monks, this Nagasena tells me that he is not a real person!  How can I be expected to agree with that!"  And to Nagasena he said:  "If, Most Reverend Nagasena, no person can be apprehended in reality, who then, I ask you, gives you what you require by way of robes, food, lodging, and medicines?  Who is it that guards morality, practises meditation, and realizes the [Four] Paths and their Fruits, and thereafter Nirvana?  Who is it that kills living beings, takes what is not given, commits sexual misconduct, tell lies, drinks intoxicants?  Who is it that commits the Five Deadly Sins?  For, if there were no person, there could be no merit and no demerit; no doer of meritorious or demeritorious deeds, and no agent behind them; no fruit of good and evil deeds, and no reward or punishment for them. If someone should kill you, O Venerable Nagasena, you would not be a real teacher, or instructor, or ordained monk! You just told me that your fellow religious habitually address you as 'Nagasena'.  Then, what is this 'Nagasena'?  Are perhaps the hairs of the head 'Nagasena'?"

"No, Great King!"

"Or perhaps the nails, teeth, skin, muscles, sinews, bones, marrow, kidneys, heart, liver, serous membranes, spleen, lungs, intestines, mesentery, stomach, excrement, the bile, phlegm, pus, blood, grease, fat, tears, sweat, spittle, snot, fluid of the joints, urine, or the brain in the skull - are they this 'Nagasena'?"

"No, Great King!"

"Or is 'Nagasena' a form, or feelings, or perceptions, or impulses, or consciousness?"

"No, Great King!"

"Then is it the combination of form, feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness?"

"No, Great King!"

"Then is it outside the combination of form, feelings, perceptions, impulses, and consciousness?"

"No, Great King!"

"Then, ask as I may, I can discover no Nagasena at all. This 'Nagasena' is just a mere sound, but who is the real Nagasena?  Your Reverence has told a lie, has spoken a falsehood!  There is really no Nagasena!"

Thereupon, the Venerable Nagasena said to King Milinda:  "As a king you have been brought up in great refinement and you avoid roughness of any kind.  If you would walk at midday on this hot, burning, and sandy ground, then your feet would have to tread on the rough and gritty gravel and pebbles, and they would hurt you, your body would get tired, your mind impaired, and your awareness of your body would be associated with pain.  How then did you come, on foot or on a mount?"

"I did not come, Sir, on foot, but on a chariot."

"If you have come on a chariot, then please explain to me what a chariot is.  Is the pole the chariot?"

"No, Reverend Sir!"

"Is then the axle the chariot?"

"No, Reverend Sir!"

"Is it then the wheels, or the framework, of the flag-staff, or the yoke, or the reins, or the goad-stick?"

"No, Reverend Sir!"

"Then is it the combination of pole, axle, wheels, framework, flag-staff, yoke, reins, and goad which is the 'chariot'?"

"No, Reverend Sir!"

"Then, is this 'chariot' outside the combination of pole, axle, wheels, framework, flag-staff, yoke, reins and goad?"

"No, Reverend Sir!"

"Then, ask as I may, I can discover no chariot at all.  This 'chariot' is just a mere sound.  But what is the real chariot?  Your Majesty has told a lie, has spoken a falsehood!  There is really no chariot!  Your Majesty is the greatest king in the whole of India.  Of whom then are you afraid, that you do not speak the truth?"  And he exclaimed:  "Now listen, you 500 Greeks and 80,000 monks, this King Milinda tells me that he has come on a chariot.  But when asked to explain to me what a chariot is, he cannot establish its existence. How can one possibly approve of that?"

The 500 Greeks thereupon applauded the Venerable Nagasena and said to King Milinda:  "Now let You Majesty get out of that if you can!"

But King Milinda said to Nagasena:  "I have not, Nagasena, spoken a falsehood.  For it is in dependence on the pole, the axle, the wheels, the framework, the flag-staff, etc, there takes place this denomination 'chariot', this designation, this conceptual term, a current appellation and a mere name."

"Your Majesty has spoken well about the chariot.  It is just so with me.  In dependence on the thirty-two parts of the body and the five Skandhas, there takes place this denomination 'Nagasena', this designation, this conceptual term, a current appellation and a mere name.  In ultimate reality, however, this person cannot be apprehended. And this has been said by our sister Vajira when she was face to face with the Lord Buddha:"

"Where all constituent parts are present, the word 'a chariot' is applied.  So, likewise, where the skandhas are, the term 'a being' commonly is used."

"It is wonderful, Nagasena, it is astonishing, Nagasena!  Most brilliantly have these questions been answered!  Were the Lord Buddha Himself here, he would approve what you have said.  Well spoken, Nagasena!  Well spoken!"

The king asked:  "When someone is reborn, Venerable Nagasena, is he the same as the one who just died, or is he another?"

The elder replied:  "He is neither the same nor another."

"Give me an illustration!"

"What do you think, Great King?  When you were a tiny infant, newly born and quite soft, were you then the same as the one who is now grown up?"

"No, that infant was one, I, now grown up, am another."

"If that is so, then, Great King, you have had no mother, no father, no teaching, no schooling!  Do we then take it that there is one mother for the embryo in the first stage, another for the second stage, another for the third, another for the fourth, another for the baby, another for the grown-up man?  Is the school-boy one person, and the one who has finished school another?  Does one commit a crime, but the hands and feet of another are cut off?"

"Certainly not!  But what would you say, Reverend Sir, to all that?"

The elder replied:  "I was neither the tiny infant, newly born and quite soft, nor am I now the grown-up man; but all these are comprised in one unit depending on this very body."

"Give me a simile!"

"If a man were to light a lamp, could it give light throughout the whole night?"

"Yes, it could."

"Is now the flame which burns in the first watch of the night the same as the one which burns in the second?"

"It is not the same."

"Or is the flame which burns in the second watch the same as the one which burns in the last one?"

"It is not the same."

"Do we then take it that there is one lamp in the first watch of the night, another in the second, and another again in the third?"

"No, it is just because of the light of the lamp shines throughout the night."

"Even so must we understand the collocation of a series of successive dharmas.  At rebirth one dharma arises, while another stops; but the two processes take place almost simultaneously (i.e. they are continuos). Therefore, the first act of consciousness in the new existence is neither the same as the last act of consciousness in the previous existence, nor it is the another."

"Give me another simile!"

"Milk, once the milking is done, turns after sometime into curds; from curds it turns into fresh butter; and from fresh butter into ghee. Would it now be correct to say that the milk is the same thing as the curds, or the fresh butter, or the ghee?"

"No, it would not.  But they have been produced because of it."

"Just so must be understood the collocation of a series of successive dharmas."

The king asked:  "Is there, Venerable Nagasena, any being which passes on from this body to another body?"

"No, Your Majesty!"

"If there were no passing on from this body to another, would not one then in one's next life be freed from the evil deeds committed in the past?"

"Yes, that would be so if one were not linked once again with a new organism.  But, Your Majesty, one is linked once again with a new organism, therefore one is not freed from one's evil deeds."

"Give me a simile!"

"If a man should steal another man's mangoes, would he deserve a thrashing for that?"

"Yes, of course!"

"But he would not have stolen the very same mangoes as the other one had planted.  Why should he deserve a thrashing?"

"For the reason that the stolen mangoes had grown because of those that were planted."

"Just so, Your Majesty, it is because of the deeds one does, whether pure or impure, by means of this psycho-physical organism, that one is once again linked with another psycho-physical organism, and is not freed from one's evil deeds."

"Very good, Venerable Nagasena!"

The king said:  "Is it through wise attention that people become exempt from further rebirth?"

"Yes, that is due to wise attention, and also to wisdom, and the other wholesome dharmas."

"But is not wise attention the same as wisdom?"

"No, Your Majesty!  Attention is one thing, and wisdom another.  Sheep and goats, oxen and buffaloes, camels and asses have attention, but wisdom they have not."

"Well put, Venerable Nagasena!"

The king asked:  "What is the mark of attention, and what is the mark of wisdom?"

"Consideration is the mark of attention, cutting off that of wisdom."

"How is that?  Give me a simile!"

"You know barley-reapers, I suppose?"

"Yes, I do."

"How then do they reap the barley?"

"With the left hand they seize a bunch of barley, in the right hand they hold a sickle, and they cut off the barley with that sickle."

"Just so, Your Majesty, the yogin seizes his mental processes with his attention, and by his wisdom he cuts off the defilements."

"Well put, Venerable Nagasena!"

The king said:  "When you just spoke of the other wholesome dharmas, which one did you mean?"

"I meant morality, faith, vigour, mindfulness, and concentration."

"And what is the mark of morality?"

"Morality has the mark of providing a basis for all wholesome dharmas, whatever they may be. When based on morality, all the wholesome dharmas will not dwindle away."

"Give me an illustration!"

"As all plants and animals which increase, grow and prosper, do so with the earth as their basis, just so the yogin, with morality as his support, with morality as the basis, develops the five cardinal virtues, i.e. faith, vigour, mindfulness, concentration, and wisdom."

"Give me an illustration!"

"As the builder of a city when constructing a town first of all clears the site, removes all stumps and thorns, and levels it; and only after that he lays out and marks off the roads and cross-roads, and so builds the city. Even so the yogin develops the five cardinal virtues with morality as his support, with morality as his basis."

The king said: "What is the mark of faith?"

"Faith makes serene, and it leaps forward."

"And how does faith make serene?"

"When faith arises it arrests the [Five] Hindrances and the heart becomes free from them, clear, serene and undisturbed."

"Give me an illustration!"

"A universal monarch might on his way, together with his fourfold army, cross over a small stream. Stirred up by the elephants and horses, by the chariots and infantry, the water would become disturbed, agitated and muddy.  Having crossed over, the universal monarch would order his men to bring some water to drink.  But the king would possesses a miraculous water-cleaning gem, and his men, in obedience to his command, would throw it into the stream.  Then at once all fragments of vegetation would float away, the mud would settle at the bottom, the stream would become clear, serene and undisturbed, and fit to be drunk by the universal monarch.  Here the stream corresponds to the heart, the monarch's men to the yogin, the fragments of vegetation and the mud to the defilements, and the miraculous water-clearing gem to faith."

"And how does faith leap forward?"

"When the yogin sees that the hearts of others have been set free, he leaps forward, by way of aspiration, to the various fruits of a holy life, and he makes efforts to attain the yet unattained, to find the yet unfound, to realize the yet unrealized."

"Give me an illustration!"

"Suppose that a great cloud were to burst over a hill-slope.  The water then would flow down the slope, would first fill all the hill's clefts, fissures, and gullies, and would then run into the river below, making its bank overflow on both sides.  Now suppose further a great crowd of people had come along, and unable to size up either the width or the depth of the river, should stand frightened and hesitating on the bank. But then the some man would come along, who, conscious of his own strength and power, would firmly tie on his loin-cloth and jump across the river. And the great crowd of people, seeing him on the other side, would cross likewise. Even so the yogin, when he has seen that the hearts of others have been set free, leaps forward, by aspiration, to the various fruits of the holy life, and he makes efforts to attain the yet unattained, to find the yet unfound, to realise the yet unrealized. And this is what the Lord Buddha has said in the Samyutta Nikaya:

"By faith the flood is crossed,

By wakefulness the sea;

By vigour ill is passed;

By wisdom cleansed is he."

The king asked:  "And what is the mark of vigour?"

"Vigour props up, and when propped up by vigour, all the wholesome dharmas do not dwindle away."

"Give me a simile!"

"If a man's house were falling down, he would prop it up with a new place of wood, and so supported, that house would not collaspe."

The king asked:  "And what is the mark of mindfulness?"

"When mindfulness arises, one calls to mind the dharmas which participate in what is wholesome and unwholesome, blameable and blameless, inferior and sublime, dark and light, i.e. these are the four applications of mindfulness, these are the four right efforts, these are the four roads to psychic power, these are the five cardinal virtues, these are the five powers, these are the seven limbs of enlightenment, this is the holy eightfold path, this is calm, this is insight, this is knowledge and this is emancipation. Thereafter, the yogin tends those dharmas which should be tended, and he does not tend those which should not be tended; he partakes of those dharmas which should be followed, and he does not partake of those which should not be followed. It is in this sense that calling to mind is a mark of mindfulness."

"Give me a simile!"

"It is like the treasurer of a universal monarch, who each morning and evening reminds his royal master of his magnificent assets:  So many elephants you have, so many horses, so many chariots, so much infantry, so many gold coins, so much bullion, so much property; may your majesty bear in this mind!  In this way he calls to mind his master's wealth."

"And how does mindfulness take up?"

"When mindfulness arises, the outcome of beneficial and harmful dharmas is examined in this way:  These dharmas are beneficial, these harmful, these dharmas are helpful, these unhelpful.  Thereafter, the yogin removes the harmful dharmas, and takes up the beneficial ones; he removes the unhelpful dharmas, and takes up the helpful ones. It is in this sense that mindfulness takes up."

"Give me a comparison!"

"It is like the invaluable adviser of a universal monarch who knows what is beneficial and what harmful to his royal master, what is helpful and what is unhelpful.  Thereafter what is harmful and unhelpful can be removed, what is beneficial and helpful can be taken up."

The king asked:  "And what is the mark of concentration?"

"It stands at the head.  Whatever wholesome dharmas there may be, they all are headed by concentration, they bend towards concentration, lead to concentration, incline to concentration."

"Give me a comparison!"

"It is as with a building with a pointed roof:  Whatever rafters they are, they all converge on the top, and bend towards the top, meet at the top, and the top occupies the most prominent place.  So with concentration in relation to the other wholesome dharmas."

"Give me a further comparison!"

"If a king were to enter a battle with his fourfold army, then all his troops:  The elephants, cavalry, chariots, and infantry, would be handed by him, and would be ranged around him.  Such is the position of concentration in relation to the other wholesome dharmas."

The king then asked:  "Then, what is the mark of wisdom?"

"Cutting off is, as I said before, one mark of wisdom.  In addition, it illuminates."

"And how does wisdom illuminate?"

"When wisdom arises, it dispels the darkness of ignorance, generates the illumination of knowledge, sheds the light of cognition, and makes the holy truths stand out clearly.  Thereafter the yogin, with his correct wisdom, can see impermanence, ill, and not self."

"Give me a comparison!"

"It is like a lamp which a man would take into a dark house.  It would dispel the darkness, would illuminate, shed light, and make the forms in the house stand out clearly."

"Well put, Nagasena!"

Thank you for joining us.  We will continue with the second half of “The Questions of King Millinda” next week, on Sunday the 21^st of August.

Before we end this program, we would like to express our gratitude to all the Dhamma teachers of the past, present and future and wholeheartedly request them all to not pass into parinirvana, but instead stay to assist us and all sentient beings in their struggle to find wisdom and true, lasting happiness.

May I be well and happy.

May you be well and happy.

May all beings be well and happy.

This script was prepared and edited by Alec Sloman, Frank Carter, and Anita Hughes.

References

http://web.singnet.sg/`rip31831/nagasesna.htm

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